Curse

Keira Nightgale · Jul 08, 2009, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stills

ok, after reading almost all of these comments this just clicked into my head, not saying it's good or bad or anything, just saying it's a thought that popped into my head.

add to mysticism: for every 2 points in myst. you have a 1% chance to cause a random condition on a struck target.

thoughts? doesn't even have to be THAT mechanic, maybe even for every 2 points you get 1% chance to steal 5e? again, i'm just brainstorming here. another option would be to make dervish enchantments "skills" so they have no activation time in combat? that way you can manage your enchants without sacking DPS?

The best way to buff an attribute is by making its skills viable.
Therefore, what do dervishes have that warriors and sin cannot?
Myticism. What are supposed to be the trait skills? Avatars. Make avatars decent and you got your dervish buff.
By the way dervish don't suck in pve eh? It's not that they are like ritualists or like paragons (forced to 1-2 builds), the main concern is about warriors and sins being more effective than them.

wilebill · Jul 08, 2009, 10:29 PM // 22:29

I just finished a nostalgia return to WoW and started a hunter and ran him up to level 70 in three weeks, so this power trip may color my views a bit.

Does the Water attribute need improvement?

Yes, in PvE water needs not only a slowing effect but a solid freeze for 2 or three seconds. Anet acts like they are afraid of water, but to me it seems as important as fire if not more so.

Is Beast Mastery lacking, overall?

Beast Mastery needs complete revision for PvE. And has needed it since the retail introduction of Prophecies. BM should not require attribute points at all. There should be a separate pet bar that allows you to mount, say, two or three BM skills that can be put on autocast plus the usual pet controls. This would not be hard to do, the pet would simply be hero number 4 and a full party member. You could then have a pet and be a full up MM, or Wilderness Survival Ranger; and still have the pet out there.

Do you have any ideas on improving the Dervish's use of the scythe to keep him on par with other classes using his own weapon?

My Dervish finished Nightfall and did Factions, and I think Prophecies, don't remember for sure. Now he is parked, just doesn't seem to have any reason to play him rather than anything else after all the nerfs. If I could ask for one thing, it would be faster scythe. Right now it feels like trying to fight with a plastic snow shovel.

Do Nature Spirits need a twist?

A twist of lemon, and some gin! I need some reason other than occult farming to put them on the bar.

Hammer much? No, really, how is it?

My warrior uses hammer a lot. Especially carry along Devona and a hammer hero and keep everything flat on the ground. Great fun. What the warrior needs is also two handed axe, two handed sword, and polearm.

olalunga · Jul 08, 2009, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stills

ok, after reading almost all of these comments this just clicked into my head, not saying it's good or bad or anything, just saying it's a thought that popped into my head.

add to mysticism: for every 2 points in myst. you have a 1% chance to cause a random condition on a struck target.

thoughts? doesn't even have to be THAT mechanic, maybe even for every 2 points you get 1% chance to steal 5e? again, i'm just brainstorming here. another option would be to make dervish enchantments "skills" so they have no activation time in combat? that way you can manage your enchants without sacking DPS?

I like the "derv-enchantments=skill" idea but it sounds a bit overpowered, the others are a bit meh...
I think the best thing i have read about dervs is making the aoe of scythe tied to mysticism as well as AoHM...(+small buff HoF)

To SF and elite areas,right now:
There are X ways to tank.. People (most of them) use 1 (SF)
Let's say Anet nerfs SF:
There are X-1 ways to tank.. People use Y (Y being vastly greater than 1)
So IMO yeah nerfing SF is the right thing to do...

As for 600/dungeon-runs all there is to be done is to modify the foe-monks to not kill themselves with auto-attack... Or give Holy Wrath the same trigger effect as Protective bond (lose X energy every time it triggers or the spell ends)... (just a question here: is holy wrath used in any "balanced" build??)

55 is pretty much dead... It only works in 3-5 areas

Hammers have a lot of KDs..

BM... never really played BM or have seen anyone seriously use it so no comment

Water Eles are a bit meh (at least PvEwise) slowing hexes are good but it needs something more than just slowing foes down.. Maybe wards or some dmg skills?

Stills · Jul 08, 2009, 11:32 PM // 23:32

yeah i agree my other brainstorm ideas were "meh", but then again most brainstorm ideas are like that. i do agree though with the avatar buffs, that was the main reason i started a derv in the first place. and i like whoever said 25%IAU for balth, unblockable for grenth (added onto the life steal, which only seems right for the GOD OF JUSTICE ffs), dwayna i think is ok but add on -1 hex as well, and NOW we're talkin, Lyssa's extra dmg and energy are good as they are but maybe some interrupts when using attack skills? melandru should have some kind of health regen, 2 maybe?

there's some more brainstorming. have at it!

MithranArkanere · Jul 08, 2009, 11:54 PM // 23:54

* Does the Water attribute need improvement?
It could use some change. In PvE you run out of energy and have to wait for recharges much more often than with other elementalist attribute lines.
Snaring is not very effective in HM with all those monsters having natural 30..50% speed increase. So in PvE, speed decrease should be stronger against monsters. Maybe by making the speed decrease related to the caster speed: "Characters moves 66% slower than you". That would also have the advantage of good synergy with skills that have the downside of slowing you down.

* Is Beast Mastery lacking, overall?
When beast mastery is used in PvE only for EoE, if used at all, then there is a problem with it. Hm... let's see...
** Beast mastery acts mainly as a 'support' attribute, but we have only 8 skill slots. If you bring skills for your pet, you don't bring own skills. You must choose between spreading attributes and skills and having two mediocre characters, or being the escort of your pet and follow it around while just activating skills and dealing almost no damage with you bow. I'd rather be able to 'possess' the pet and directly control it instead, that just following around a dumb henchman.
** Controlling the pet is annoying. They will run to target to target even when you lock a target. You must wait for one attack to be performed to activate another one, and the usual stuck problems affect pets too. Like a chest in the way.
** There are many skills that affect other allies controlled creatures. But only one affect allied pets.
** There is almost no synergy with other professions. Since they are allies and not party members, many skills won't work on them. They are something 'extra' trying to work as part of the party.
Beast mastery needs an entire overhaul.

* Do you have any ideas on improving the Dervish's use of the scythe to keep him on par with other classes using his own weapon?
When improving something for a profession would make it too strong, what you do to make that profession better with it is making it worse for the rest (i.e.: Weapon spells).
Daggers have a 'special' feature: they can deal double strikes. This feature is increased with the rank of the attribute. But scythe's special feature: Hit multiple enemies, is fixed.
If you link that to Scythe mastery, you ensure that only dervishes can hit 3..5 enemies with a scythe swing, and the rest are stuck with 1..2.

"Scythe Mastery increases the damage you do with scythes and your chance to inflict a critical hit when using a scythe. Many skills, especially scythe attack skills, become more effective with higher Scythe Mastery. When attacking you will hit 1 additional foe at ranks 8 and above, 2 foes at ranks 13 and above, 3 foes at rank 15 and above and 4 at ranks 16 and avobe."
That way, if you don't have scythe mastery 13, you don't hit 3 enemies, and if you have scythe mastery 16, you hit 5.
Is not much, but it's a start.

Do Nature Spirits need a twist?
Well, they are a double edged weapon. Their use is VERY specific, much more than other skills. You can kill a fire-resistant enemy with fire magic, but you don't bring a nature ritual unless you are actively needing it.
I won't mind a PvE ritualist skill functionality change to allow control over allied nature ritual effects: Cast once, affect foes, cast again, affect allies, another cast, affects all again... but spirit dies sooner.
Other that that... what could you do for them? Since they affect both enemy and ally, if you increase their power too much, they become even more specific, if you decrease it, you make them useless... they are a weird feature that works great if you know how to use it, but, again, too specific so they always require you to bring them only when you know exactly what are you going to face, and all allied skills. Not much versatility there.

Hammer much? No, really, how is it?
Hammer is fine.

olalunga · Jul 09, 2009, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stills

yeah i agree my other brainstorm ideas were "meh", but then again most brainstorm ideas are like that. i do agree though with the avatar buffs, that was the main reason i started a derv in the first place. and i like whoever said 25%IAU for balth, unblockable for grenth (added onto the life steal, which only seems right for the GOD OF JUSTICE ffs), dwayna i think is ok but add on -1 hex as well, and NOW we're talkin, Lyssa's extra dmg and energy are good as they are but maybe some interrupts when using attack skills? melandru should have some kind of health regen, 2 maybe?

there's some more brainstorming. have at it!

well the main disadvantage of dervs IMO is not their lack of powerful skills but the fact that they cannot use the weapon that was designed for them better than other classes... Buffing Avatars would for sure power-up only dervs but wouldn't solve the scythe problem...

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

* Do you have any ideas on improving the Dervish's use of the scythe to keep him on par with other classes using his own weapon?
When improving something for a profession would make it too strong, what you do to make that profession better with it is making it worse for the rest (i.e.: Weapon spells).
Daggers have a 'special' feature: they can deal double strikes. This feature is increased with the rank of the attribute. But scythe's special feature: Hit multiple enemies, is fixed.
If you link that to Scythe mastery, you ensure that only dervishes can hit 3..5 enemies with a scythe swing, and the rest are stuck with 1..2.
Is not much, but it's a start.

Most of the time with the scythe u strike 2-3 foes so it's not that big a buff for the derv but as already stated it's a start!

Arkantos · Jul 09, 2009, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Viable ≠ Desirable

All the other options that are not currently used, but may be if SF was to be removed, are just as viable now as they would be then. The only difference being is that people wouldn't want to run them as it means you're not running SF - hence they are currently undesirable.

Their viability doesn't change, but their desirability does.

What I'm basically saying, is replace the word viable with desirable in your statement and it'll be true.

So what you're saying is a W/E obsidian flesh tank is as viable as a A/E shadow form tank?

Quote:

If that is true, then we should see a balanced mix of hammer, sword and axe warriors in the game. We don't. Hence there is either an extremely overwhelming warrior player bias toward sword & axe or there is a balance issue with hammers. Out of all the millions of GW players with PvE warrior toons, I find it extremely hard to fathom why 99+% of them would avoid using hammers unless there was something fundamentally underpowered with that weapon or its skills.

Pulling numbers out of your ass isn't good for a discussion. I don't know why you think swords and axes are so much more used, because they aren't. Any decent player will tell you how strong an earth shaker warrior is. If anything, the only weapon mastery line that needs a buff is axe.

Xenomortis · Jul 09, 2009, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

So what you're saying is a W/E obsidian flesh tank is as viable as a A/E shadow form tank?

No.
I am saying that the viability of a W/E obsidian tank will remain unchanged if SF was to be killed, but it's desirability will potentially increase (if it's the next best option).

I'm going to do something stupid and apply absolute values for "viability".

Let's say an A/E SF tank has a viability rating of 6 for a given area.
Let's also say a W/E OF tank has a viability rating of 4 for the same area.

SF is killed (reducing it's viability to 0), the next best alternative is OF (assuming nothing was inbetween it and SF). Suddenly OF is the most desirable option, it's desirability has increased.

I admit, I've stretched the definition of the word viable here, but whatever. What I really mean is effectiveness, but that stretch was made before I arrived.

Arkantos · Jul 09, 2009, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

No.
I am saying that the viability of a W/E obsidian tank will remain unchanged if SF was to be killed, but it's desirability will potentially increase (if it's the next best option).

I'm going to do something stupid and apply absolute values for "viability".

Let's say an A/E SF tank has a viability rating of 6 for a given area.
Let's also say a W/E OF tank has a viability rating of 4 for the same area.

SF is killed (reducing it's viability to 0), the next best alternative is OF (assuming nothing was inbetween it and SF). Suddenly OF is the most desirable option, it's desirability has increased.

I admit, I've stretched the definition of the word viable here, but whatever.

What was one of the main tanks used before SF? Obsidian flesh tanks.

The only reason they aren't viable anymore is because compared to shadow form tanks, they're shit. Nerf shadow form, and they aren't shit.

So yeah, it's a mix of viable and desirable, really.

Xenomortis · Jul 09, 2009, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

The only reason they aren't viable anymore is because compared to shadow form tanks, they're shit. Nerf shadow form, and they aren't shit.

But I'm saying it's just as viable now as it was then.
Relatively speaking, then no, it isn't - that is if things are "measured" relative to the best option.

How much something is used or desired is no measure of viability, especially when it comes to farming.

It was a small thing I brought up.

Hyper Cutter · Jul 09, 2009, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Avatar of Melandru should have its cost cut for PVE, since the cost makes it hard to maintain and do other things at the same time...

At the very least, it should be 15e like Grenth (which, iirc, it what it cost when Nightfall came out).

draxynnic · Jul 09, 2009, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by FengShuiDove

Dervishes and Scythes -- In my opinion (as someone who LOVES playing A/D), the Dervish's weakness is in the Mysticism *line*. Yes, the attribute itself is subpar, but the Avatars are a shining example of a good, diverse, fun skill. They've been nerfed several times due to the temporarily overpowering nature of them in PvP settings, but c'mon, everyone knows Warrior's Endurance and WotM/CritAgil kick the crap out of anything the Dervish can produce. Here's what I suggest (and a lot of areas where I find the Dervish to be weak are bundled up in the changes I would make to the avatars):

Balthazar: Add 25% IAS.
Grenth: Cannot be blocked. Make it function properly with Conjure Frost so that you don't have to bring a Cold weapon to trigger Conjure.
Lyssa: +5...21 damage (not just against foes activating skills, but keep bonus damage to reward for good timing, big hits, etc.), and/or energy stealing on attack.
Melandru and Dwayna also need some work to make them suitable for general PvE.

Lyssa shouldn't be about brute strength. Possibly switch the IAS between Lyssa and give the conditionless bonus damage to Balthazar (who should be about brute strength, and who can then combine with HoF). Or perhaps Lyssa can have a chance to interrupt enemies when hitting.

Dwayna is all about 'I'll shrug off whatever you throw', so maybe an inbuilt Mystic Vigor effect can be thrown in for even more survivability. Melandru... probably just needs a cost cut in PvE as Hyper Cutter advocates, and maybe a restoration to granting +200 health instead of +100.

EDIT: Been thinking on the Illusion issue, and while there are probably other decent skills in Illusion apart from Clumsiness and Wandering Eye, they're pretty much entirely non-elite - there's no real 'general purpose' elite in Illusion worthy of the name.

Consider:
Air of Disenchantment: A good, but situational, elite. Can be a lifesaver against enemies that rely a lot on enchantments for their effectiveness, nearly useless otherwise.

Crippling Anguish: Decent, if you want a slowdown, but the token degen and lower recharge (compared to Imagined Burden) aren't really worth the elite status in PvE.

Fevered Dreams: Another good but situational elite, but in this case it relies on your allies more than your enemies.

Illusionary Weaponry: Other people have probably expressed this better than I have. Haven't seriously tried it myself...

Ineptitude: Completely outclassed by Blinding Surge, which a) affects multiple targets and b) can maintain a Blind. To compete, Ineptitude probably needs to either have a low enough recharge to maintain the Blind, or have an area-of-effect. Since the current recharge has come from nerfs in the past, an area effect (like Clumsiness) is possibly the change less likely to result in a split.

Migraine: Realistically, the token degen is not what you'd be casting this for, making it essentially a weaker form of Arcane Conundrum. An area effect would still leave it moderately situational, but at least worthy of the elite label.

Recurring Insecurity: Long-lasting, single target, minor degen is possibly the last thing you want in PvE.

Shared Burden: Okay, I'll have to admit I hadn't registered that it affects attack and casting speeds now. Probably the best contender for a 'general-purpose' Illusion elite, as long as the team isn't relying on reactive hexes for damage.

Signet of Illusions: A gimmick skill - really, if you're using Sig of Illusions, you probably aren't really using an illusion build...

Targren · Jul 09, 2009, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

Are we going to be at the point where every skill has a "PvE version", so the transition from PvE into PvP is a rocky road with cliffs and rockslides?

I'm pretty sure that, 4 years into the game, pretty much everyone who wants to "transition" from PvE into PvP has done so. If not, they're screwed anyway by lack of rank (I read in another thread, someone mentioning low ranked players, who was promptly responded to with "If you finally want to get into HA now, you shouldn't even be playing").

"PvE to PvP transition" really seems to be a non-issue anymore. Most PvErs couldn't care less about PvP, and the PvP community doesn't want us anyway.

MithranArkanere · Jul 09, 2009, 01:53 PM // 13:53

The thing with mesmers is that they are the best class shutting down... single targets.
Yeah, there are quite some AoE skills with that nice armor ignoring damage, but only HM monsters can use them with real effectiveness thanks to them being seemingly under Chimera of Intensity.

The long recharge times and the big downsides of the energy recover options for mesmers (require interruption, use up elite slot, long recharges, little amounts of energy gain, even longer recharges...) make PvE gameplay a bit frustrating excepting with a small and limited number of options.

Auspicious Incantation seems to be the only real good way to recover energy for mesmers in PvE.

draxynnic · Jul 09, 2009, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

The thing with mesmers is that they are the best class shutting down... single targets.
Yeah, there are quite some AoE skills with that nice armor ignoring damage, but only HM monsters can use them with real effectiveness thanks to them being seemingly under Chimera of Intensity.

The long recharge times and the big downsides of the energy recover options for mesmers (require interruption, use up elite slot, long recharges, little amounts of energy gain, even longer recharges...) make PvE gameplay a bit frustrating excepting with a small and limited number of options.

Auspicious Incantation seems to be the only real good way to recover energy for mesmers in PvE.

Also good points. It's no coincidence that two of my suggestions for improving Illusion elites are... making them affect multiple targets.

And it's sad how the Mesmer has gone from the profession others specced into for their energy management... to the profession that almost always specs into some other profession for its own.